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Knuckleball School

I don't understand why, but my guess is that clubs would prefer to have really talented guys that threw in a conventional style instead of a bunch of guys who normally wouldn't hack it but are there because of a gimmick.
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I think you hit the nail on the head. The scouts are always looking for a power arm and prefer that pitchers are at least 6' 3" (preferably taller). However in this era of strict pitch counts having a knuckleball pitcher who does not require a pitch count would be huge.
 
Furthermore, to the OP's point, I don't think that the bullpen theory works at all. Wakefield has made all of 4 relief appearances since he became a full time starter
So, in answer to the original question...I don't think its worth it.

Unfortunately we always bring up Wakefield because he is really the only decent current knuckleball pitcher. He is perhaps not the best example because he has been fighting a bad back for years. However, look up the stats of Hoyt Wilhelm (career era of 2.52) to show that knuckleball pitchers can indeed be dominant.

Wilbur Wood routinely bounced between the rotation and the bullpen. In 1968, Wood had a 1.87 era in 88 appearances. In 1971 Wood threw 334 innings and had a 1.91 era. I'd call that pretty dominant and a huge help to the bullpen.

The idea of the knuckleball school is that you are basically taking something off the scrapheap and trying to turn it into something serviceable. The organization has absolutely nothing to lose.
 
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Stjynnkii membörd dummpsjterd
Let's not forget the eephus pitch. :lol:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFvp7kMraAw[/YOUTUBE]
 
Being able to throw a knuckleball is not a guarentee to success. Also, not every player has trouble hitting a knuckleball.

If minor leaguers were taught the mentally and work ethic that Latino and Japanese players have, they would be even further ahead.


The Red Sox have been killing themselves the better part of this lost season trying to get their $50 mil Japanese import to harden his work-ethic above and beyond face-lifting rounds of cheeseburgers, while his mostly black and white teammates have carried on without him, clearly with sharper mentalities and work ethics.

No ethnic demographic has any harder work ethics, generally, than any other. It's all up to the individual.

"Much to Red Sox officials' ire, that didn't happen this past winter. When they saw Matsuzaka pitching in the World Baseball Classic with a chubbier face and more weight on his frame, it added to a growing internal frustration that their international investment did whatever he wanted, however he wanted.

That includes the Red Sox, who nearly two months ago had a public war of words with their pitcher. Frustrated by his work ethic and his 8.23 ERA, the Red Sox placed Matsuzaka on the disabled list on June 21 with a sore shoulder. He was sent to Florida with a strict conditioning program, which included getting his core in shape."


http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/columns/story?columnist=nelson_amy&id=4477029
 
....In fact, that's why the knuckleballers in the league have special relationships with a single catcher (usually not the everyday catcher) who wears an abnormally big mitt because they are so hard to catch.

To the OP, I've wondered the same thing...

That brings back some memories....growing up watching Phil Niekro pitch, I remember Bruce Benedict catching for him and his mitt. I met both players once as a teenager during an autograph signing, Bruce Benedict had his mitt with him. It looked like a trash can lid.:lol:


On Knucksie's pitch:

"Trying to hit him (Phil Niekro) is like trying to eat Jell-O with chopsticks." - Bobby Murcer, who batted only .208 with no home runs (all 10 of his hits were singles) in 48 career at-bats against Niekro.


"It's like watching Mario Andretti park a car." - Ralph Kiner

"Trying to hit that thing is a miserable way to make a living," and "I work for three weeks to get my swing down pat and Phil (Niekro) messes it up in one night." - Pete Rose

"It giggles as it goes by," and "When I swing, don't laugh." - Rick Monday

Ken (Hawk) Harrelson - a former player, General Manager, and current announcer proposed an interesting idea. Why not hire a former knuckleball pitcher such as Phil Neikro or Charley Hough and create a knuckleball school for all of your struggling minor league pitchers (who would otherwise be released)?


Phil did tutor his nephew Lance in the knuckler so Lance could attempt a comeback this season (I think he was in Danville or Mississippi - not certain). Lance Niekro had bounced around in the Giants and Astros organizations for a few years but got released after his dad Joe died a couple of years ago. He decided to try a comeback as a knuckleball pitcher, so Uncle Phil got the call. Hope he makes it...it'd be nice to see a 3rd Niekro throw knuckleballs in a Braves uni.
 
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Unfortunately we always bring up Wakefield because he is really the only decent current knuckleball pitcher. He is perhaps not the best example because he has been fighting a bad back for years. However, look up the stats of Hoyt Wilhelm (career era of 2.52) to show that knuckleball pitchers can indeed be dominant.

Wilbur Wood routinely bounced between the rotation and the bullpen. In 1968, Wood had a 1.87 era in 88 appearances. In 1971 Wood threw 334 innings and had a 1.91 era. I'd call that pretty dominant and a huge help to the bullpen.

The idea of the knuckleball school is that you are basically taking something off the scrapheap and trying to turn it into something serviceable. The organization has absolutely nothing to lose.

...and Denny Mclain won 30 games in '68...then they lowered the mound. Its useless to compare one era against another, you gotta look at what they guy does in context to his peers. Wakefield is a mediocre, at best pitcher, and there are few others throwing the knuckler to even look at. So, yes, you're right, we are stuck with Wakefield as really the only example, this is why I looked at him in regard to the concept of being a "flex" pitcher. He isn't. So, he's a mediocre pitcher, who isn't a flex guy, at least no more than anyone else who ends up in those circumstances I described above, and the OP would ask whether or not its worth while spending money on developing such players. Heck, Jamie Moyer is a soft tossing 46 year old who is more successful than Tim Wakefield, if MLB is gonna start dumping money on making more Wakefields then I'm gonna write the same article about Moyer and maybe find myself a new career in mid-life. I wonder if my kids would mind me being on the road at least 81 days out of the year?
 
...and Denny Mclain won 30 games in '68...then they lowered the mound. Its useless to compare one era against another, you gotta look at what they guy does in context to his peers. Wakefield is a mediocre, at best pitcher, and there are few others throwing the knuckler to even look at. So, yes, you're right, we are stuck with Wakefield as really the only example, this is why I looked at him in regard to the concept of being a "flex" pitcher. He isn't. So, he's a mediocre pitcher, who isn't a flex guy, at least no more than anyone else who ends up in those circumstances I described above, and the OP would ask whether or not its worth while spending money on developing such players. Heck, Jamie Moyer is a soft tossing 46 year old who is more successful than Tim Wakefield, if MLB is gonna start dumping money on making more Wakefields then I'm gonna write the same article about Moyer and maybe find myself a new career in mid-life. I wonder if my kids would mind me being on the road at least 81 days out of the year?

Moyer and Wakefield have remarkably similar stats, and your kids would definitely mind you being gone that much... it sucks:frown:
 
Why didn't I see this earlier? What a great thread! Well any baseball related thread is, the sole exception being those inane Yankees-Sox threads. :rolleyes:

Getting back to the question posed in the opening post, I think that is a great idea. Learning to pitch a good knuckleball I think would be very beneficial. It puts very little strain on the arm, making it a great pitch to use to eat up innings when need. Not only that learning it has been known to help revive pitching careers. Steve Sparks is good example of this. If I remember correctly he screwed up his arm very early in his career by dislocating and separating his shoulder trying to rip a phone book of all things. Afterwards he learned the knuckleball and ended up playing in the majors for ten seasons. He wasn't a dominant pitcher by any means, but he was a one of the few bright spots on Detroit Tigers earlier this decade.
 
...and Denny Mclain won 30 games in '68...then they lowered the mound.

Winning 30 games had nothing to do with a higher mound...it was made possible by a 4 man rotation. I would like to see a return to a 4 man rotation too but that will be another post.
 
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bigger ballparks, more foul territory, bigger strike zone, higher mounds, etc.

That should have more of an effect on ERA. All pitchers were dealing with the same conditions so wins should not be effected as much. You will get no argument from me that it was easier to pitch in the 60's. Lets not forget...no body armor and you could actually pitch inside.
 
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Being able to throw a knuckleball is not a guarentee to success. Also, not every player has trouble hitting a knuckleball.

If minor leaguers were taught the mentally and work ethic that Latino and Japanese players have, they would be even further ahead.

True, even the best knuckleball pitchers can get hammered by home runs on a bad pitch or total bad day. If the pitch doesn't move like it is supposed to, it's easier to hit out than a batting practice toss.

It does allow a pitcher to have a VERY long career if he can keep his pitch under control. Aside from Niekro, Wakefield and Charlie Hough are examples of how to keep yourself in the league. Hough threw for 25 years! Somehow, he ended up with an even 216-216 career record, but as he got older, he started getting hammered and gave up a ton of HRs annually.

It's rare these days, but if someone can control a knuckleball, they'll have a place on some team. However, it usually needs to be a powerful offensive team since there is ZERO margin for error with this pitch.

The team usually needs to have a catcher with specific knuckleball experience too, because most catchers struggle with the pitch.

It's always amazing to watch a knuckleballer strike someone out...it looks embarrassing for the batter, but the pitch can be VERY tough to hit.
 
Winning 30 games had nothing to do with a higher mound...it was made possible by a 4 man rotation. I would like to see a return to a 4 man rotation too but that will be another post.

I'd rather see starters go 9 innings more often than a 4-man rotation. There are only a few who still do it consistently: Sabathia, Halladay, Greinke.
 
bigger ballparks, more foul territory, bigger strike zone, higher mounds, etc.

What? He played for the Tigers for cripe sakes. Tiger Stadium was no bigger, had no more foul territory back in 1968 than the day it opened back on April 12, 1912.

Actually, I'll take that back. If anything, the park shrunk some as they expanded the park after Frank Navin died back in 1935 because that's when they started adding to the upper deck and created the upper deck overhangs the stadium was famous for.
 
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That should have more of an effect on ERA. All pitchers were dealing with the same conditions so wins should not be effected as much. You will get no argument from me that it was easier to pitch in the 60's. Lets not forget...no body armor and you could actually pitch inside.

Hmmm.... If you buy into lower ERAs doesn't lead to more wins, I agree with you. However, I don't. Give someone that throws hard that letter high strike, and he goes from being hard to hit to almost impossible (= more wins) then combine that with being able to change planes that much more from a higher mound when he does want to throw down in the zone, and it starts getting comical how hard he is to hit. While it's true that all pitchers are dealing with the exact same conditions, the really good talents of that era were very likely to get more wins than their counterparts due to their ability to take advantage of those conditions that make it easier to pitch.
 
What? He played for the Tigers for cripe sakes. Tiger Stadium was no bigger, had no more foul territory back in 1968 than the day it opened back on April 12, 1912.

Oh, I didn't realize he was the only pitcher in league history to pitch all of his games at home :rolleyes:
 
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