What's new

Gonna try the R41 2011 steep angle approach. Any helpful hints?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I am (for some reason) deeply fascinated by how it goes for Jim, so regular updates are welcome.

:popc: I'll be watching!
Hmmm----here it is--a Friday afternoon. Pardon me for asking: Is it that you don't have much of a life these days?:wacko:
 
Last edited:
First Codfish, you are a true expert. Have confidence and things will go well.

You probably know most if not all of the following:

Steep Angle R41 Tips



  1. When starting out steep angle use a soap with Kaolin clay that you know to be protective. Mike's or Napa Soap work great for me. With aggressive blade contact at crucial times the physics of clay trumps the chemistry of just soap for protection.
  2. Two passes only, true WTG, true XTG. Maybe some touch up.
  3. Whatever time you usually give lather to soften your beard, add at least another minute, being sure to hydrate it as lather dries on the face.
  4. When lathering linger over your traditional trouble areas.
  5. Hydrated lather only. Soap needs water to be slick. With the R41 sticky lather is a nick grenade.
  6. Slight but sufficient pressure is necessary to allow the comb to stretch and then roll the skin up toward the blade at the R41 2011's built-in angle.
  7. Think of the comb ahead of the blade needing some runway to get going.
  8. Steady moderate speed. Too fast and tugging will spike. Too slow and the skin tension the comb imparts will release before it reaches the blade.
  9. There IS a path and angle built into the R41. A shaver's job is to guide the razor so the razor can then properly guide the skin over the blade at its optimum angle.
  10. Fear not nor wander off in thought.
  11. Start out use a new blade every shave.
  12. Gauge your BBS an hour or two after your shave. Steep angle shave stubble takes time to recede.

Have a great shave.

Thanks aimsport; this is a great summary. I have not had much success using an angle less than about 60 degrees. After weeks of experimenting w/R41, I've found three things are especially crucial for me for a great shave:

1. A relatively sharp sharp blade (Personna Med Preps, Polsilver SI's, and PermaSharp Supers, and Platinum Super Israelis all work well for me).

2. As slick and protective a lather as I can make (eg., Mike's, Bio Palmyra as is, or super-lathered w/KMF)

3. Steady delicate short strokes on flat areas of the face, delicate longer strokes over the contour of the jawline, chin and Adam's apple areas. May not work for others, but minimizes tugging/nicks for me.
 
Well gosh, I take a few days off from B&B because of a busy work schedule and look what happens…. perhaps the most interesting thread of recent memory pops up!!! :lol:

Jim, I'm really interested to see how this goes for you and am looking forward to your updates. I've found the steep angle to work very well for me, so I hope it works for you too.

I never measured, nor I think it's easy to measure it, accurately at least. But ... I'll throw in my number ... I estimate the angle I use to be very close to 90° ... I'll say 75° :

I agree with Edgar… that angle looks just about right to me.

You're welcome Jim. And I want to thank you for doing this, and to make this very clear: in the end of this test, your opinion ( doesn't matter if positive or negative) will be welcomed and appreciated. :thumbup1:

For sure!

Edgar, thanks for the diagram. I have taken the liberty of adding a piece. The key piece of the R41 shave, I believe.

I roughly sketched the comb in green over your image. The comb rolls the skin changing its angle of approach radically, so the blade does not actually cut at the original 75 degrees, but at a much more shallow angle. The skin rolls over the comb changing its angle. The skin is also stretched by the comb. Shallow angle shaving greatly diminishes the combs effectiveness. Steep angle shaving engages the comb's benefits.

Exactly… this is the key IMO, and as usual you have done a superb job explaining and drawing it out.

No ... do not use any pressure. Just shave as you usually do, only using a steep angle if you are willing to try it.

Yes, no pressure is still key. Pressure + steep angle = blood.

Overall, like I said, can't wait to see how this goes for you Jim. Wish I had more info to add but seriously it seems like most of it has been covered already by my fellow R41 steep angle aficionados. Fantastic thread!!!
 
First, thanks to all who are helping here. Aimsport and nuclearblast are providing super guidance and tutorials. Our friend chinmusic89 is making a valuable contribution by testing this method with the Fatip. Then of course, cpacamper lightens the incredible tension with comic relief!
proxy.php


I should talk about my setup. I'm using my favorite: the original R41 2011 with standard handle. I started with a Simpson's Chubby 2 synthetic brush, and a fresh first-aid kit with styptic pencil. As I get more comfortable, I'll rotate different heads, handles, brushes and soaps/creams as makes sense during the test period

As recommended, I'm taking my time to do my best prep immediately after showering. First, I make a high-grade lather with Mitchell's Wool Fat soap. Then I wet, soak and re-wet my face and rub on a thin layer of Cremo cream. This is a non-lathering shave cream that is slick, slick, slick! It is perfect to make a two-part super-lather with a soap that adds other qualities you want (in this case, hydrating, cushioning and moisturizing). The lather I use is on the moist side, but even so, I need to freshen it with new lather as I go along.

Today's Results

Equipment: Muhle R41 2011, Simpson's Chubby 2 synthetic brush, MWF soap w/ Cremo cream in a superlather, Russian Perma-Sharp blade.

I was more consistent in keeping a steeper angle, but how correct it is I do not know. I need to remember the WTG/XTG sequence better (I had a tendency towards XTG). Pressure or lack of it seemed pretty good. The overall shave, however, was not as comfortable as yesterday. My neck on the non-dominant side burns. I can't remember this happening in the past.. Also, I had two minor and self healing weepers on the non-dominant side if my mouth.

Overall, the closeness is better and more consistent than yesterday. The Tabac irritation test is improved a little, but my neck feels raw and damaged.

I think my Perma-Sharp is too thin for the 2011, so I'll change it tomorrow. Any recommendations? Feathers may be good, but they do not work for me,
 
Last edited:
I don't have thousands of shaves with the R41 under my belt as you do Jim. At the time the steep angle started to become popular around here I was already getting great results using the very shallow angle and thought that was the only way to go.

In fact I was one of the steep angle skeptics ... :lol: What, using the R41 to scrap my face with a steep angle?! Are you crazy or what?!
Truth is, I tried it and immediately I could tell the difference, mostly regarding safety! I don't need to be nearly as careful using a steep angle, and the irritation was reduced to the point I barely get any these days.

One other thing, the increased feeling of safety allowed me to grow bolder and go faster, using very short and rapid strokes. That made an huge difference too. That together with stretching the skin, which amplifies even more the action of the comb when you use the steep angle, put an end to my trouble areas along the jaw lines and lower neck.

These two things combined leave no chance for whiskers left behind. The R41 will raise and slice through every single one of them, providing the hyper-close shaves I am used to get now.

My prep is nothing special really. While I have a shower I apply some hair conditioner to my beard and let it do its thing. Basically that's it. Then I face lather some Arko or Tabac, Arko for the most part. Dip the Beast in hot water for a couple seconds and start mowing down the whiskers.

Great shaves each time, no need to think or be too careful, I just enjoy ... YKPLMF ( Your Kilometers Per Litre May Fluctuate ).
 
Overall, the closeness is better and more consistent than yesterday. The Tabac irritation test is improved a little, but my neck feels raw and damaged.

Yikes! This is not heading in the right direction. The terms "raw and damaged" are not good and if this continues without some key change the damage will accumulate upon itself. Please consider pausing and contemplating some kind of change.

I reviewed the ingredient list of Cremo Cream. Neither it nor Mitchell's Wool Fat has protective clay, except perhaps for the little amount of titanium dioxide, the protection these two software provide is only chemical. When learning there are times when the blade and the skin have moments of static friction, especially just before the blade begins to separate the hair molecules and cut the hair shaft. Having clay there at that moment will avoid most if not all nicks.

While learning the steep angled technique, it is much better to have Kaolin in the lather. I have been experimenting with blends of different clays but it is slow going as I only have one shave a day as a test. Kaolin alone gives me 90+% of the benefit.

Two options:

a. Switch to another high quality soap that has kaolin clay, or add clay yourself.

b. Feltspanky and others have recommended a light thoroughly spread coating of Noxzema. I have tried it at it works very well as a preshave for the R41.

or, c. I guess... both of the above.

One more point... You're brain is clearly very very active in considering all the combinations of handles, heads, brushes and blades. That's great. But during the shave, take Stephen Sills' advice and "Love the one you're with". Give the combo you've chosen your complete and undivided attention. I've been there, drifting off thinking and over-thinking things to the point that I'm not really present for the shave itself. If you get lost in anything, get absorbed by the feedback the R41 gives you and how the blade feels as you guide it following the curvature of your face fine tuning the R41 steep angle.

All the best.
 
I don't have thousands of shaves with the R41 under my belt as you do Jim. At the time the steep angle started to become popular around here I was already getting great results using the very shallow angle and thought that was the only way to go.

In fact I was one of the steep angle skeptics ... :lol: What, using the R41 to scrap my face with a steep angle?! Are you crazy or what?!
Truth is, I tried it and immediately I could tell the difference, mostly regarding safety! I don't need to be nearly as careful using a steep angle, and the irritation was reduced to the point I barely get any these days.

One other thing, the increased feeling of safety allowed me to grow bolder and go faster, using very short and rapid strokes. That made an huge difference too. That together with stretching the skin, which amplifies even more the action of the comb when you use the steep angle, put an end to my trouble areas along the jaw lines and lower neck.

These two things combined leave no chance for whiskers left behind. The R41 will raise and slice through every single one of them, providing the hyper-close shaves I am used to get now.

My prep is nothing special really. While I have a shower I apply some hair conditioner to my beard and let it do its thing. Basically that's it. Then I face lather some Arko or Tabac, Arko for the most part. Dip the Beast in hot water for a couple seconds and start mowing down the whiskers.

Great shaves each time, no need to think or be too careful, I just enjoy ... YKPLMF ( Your Kilometers Per Litre May Fluctuate ).

Completely agree. Once you have the "aha" moment, the steep angle shave is a very safe and calm shave. In fact, I reach for the R41, not a cartridge, when I have to rush out suddenly and need to be clean shaven. I can shave in under three minutes easily, and walk in with totally calm skin.

As experienced as he is, still, there is something blocking Codfish from getting to his "aha" moment with the steep angle. But once he gets it, be it blade choice, or Kaolin, or Noxzema... or whatever, I know that he will be able to get less and less picky with components and get a very solid R41 shave with pretty much any soap, any blade.
 
MWF has always been a top performer for me. I haven't used Cremo in a while and am most likely to drop that for the next trial. i do not like to change more than one variable at a time. Here is what I'm most familiar with: Prairie Creations tallow (most likely to fit your bill IMO as it contains the clay), Arko, Proraso, G.F. Trumper, The Beach, Muhle creams. All others in storage.

Although I'm new to this technique, I otherwise have experience with testing, for crying out loud. :w00t: I don't need newbie lessons. I get perfect shaves with the shallow angle, and for me, this is an unnatural act. If tomorrow's shave does not improve, I'll suspend posting here for a week or more--until I get more comfortable.

Note: I just saw the above post and will definitely stick with MWF, but go with a stiffer blade. I''m thinking of Personna Meds. Did I see Dorco mentioned?
 
Last edited:

I think my Perma-Sharp is too thin for the 2011, so I'll change it tomorrow. Any recommendations? Feathers may be good, but they do not work for me,

Jim, great to see you are achieving some success with this new method.

You may want to try the original Super Iridiums! Fantastic blades. Best of luck! :thumbup:
 
Jim, great to see you are achieving some success with this new method.

You may want to try the original Super Iridiums! Fantastic blades. Best of luck! :thumbup:

This! ^^^^ The original Super Iridium and Gillette Platinum are the best blades to pair with the R41, IME at least.
 
Personna Meds are very good.
Super Iridium are outstanding.
Dorco are outstanding but with those you will have to give your stubble an hour or two to recede before you judge the closeness.

For comfort of shave Super Iridium and Personna Meds both beat Dorco (longer lathering reduces that difference to near zero). For duration of BBS Dorco beats all other blades for me. YMMV.

Smooth is the R41 blade sine qua non. Tune the sharpness to your beard and skin type.
 
Last edited:
This! ^^^^ The original Super Iridium and Gillette Platinum are the best blades to pair with the R41, IME at least.
My Iridium Supers went out of production three years ago, and my supply is gone (I think). I agree, they were a fantastic blade, There are new Iridiums available, but I lost interest because of the controversy about them (they are counterfeits of the old ones). I tend to limit my blade supply to those that work well for me. I'll have to do an inventory, as I know I have at least a dozen brands on hand. I just bough a bulk purchase of Rapira Platinum Lux, for those familiar with them. They or the Med work.
 
Last edited:
Jim, GBSs and Personna Reds, with Gillette yellow 7:00 work well for me. Not sure about thickness of those blades however.
 
It's 8:20 AM and my third attempt is behind me. I changed two variables today against my better judgement. Now I am not exactly sure what is responsible for the results I got.

Setup: Muhle R41 2011. standard handle. Personna med prep blade. Prairie Creations tallow & lanolin soap (w/ shea butter, castor oil and kaolin clay). Muhle STF-V1 brush (long-time favorite).

I had mixed results again today. Overall, the shaves are improving. I had less irritation/burning, but the shave is not as close either. Jawline is improved quite a bit, but chin continues to be a problem (I had two small bleeders). I'm encouraged by the fact that things seem to be headed in a positive direction.

I am beginning to feel that it's going to take a little time to shake my shallow angle habits. It took some practice to learn that style. But un-learning habits--like cart shaving methods--can be challenging as well. For that reason, I 'm thinking about suspending my posts for a while. My guess is that I need a week to get this under reasonable control.

What do you think?
 
It is perfectly understandable that you're having issues adapting to the steep angle, after thousands of shaves using the shallow technique, Jim.

It's not like I think you should stop posting your daily thoughts for a while, you've been honest and that is what matters. Also, this goes to show the steep technique requires some practice even if one is an experienced shaver.

It's been very interesting so far.
 
I am beginning to feel that it's going to take a little time to shake my shallow angle habits. It took some practice to learn that style. But un-learning habits--like cart shaving methods--can be challenging as well.

+1 on the unlearning cart habits. I've been traditional wet shaving for little over a year (450 shaves or so, head and face) and I STILL tend to fall into old, bad habits. Muscle memory is strong.

For that reason, I 'm thinking about suspending my posts for a while. My guess is that I need a week to get this under reasonable control.

What do you think?

Well, I hope you don't suspend posting. Reading how you are feeling your way here is informative and helpful.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom