Czech and Speak No. 88

[Isaac]

So I just found out that C&S No. 88 was reformulated perhaps 10 years ago. The original frag came in a gray cylinder and supposedly smelled amazing. People say the reformulation was quite a disappointment, but that is all I know and love. Have any of you tried this mythical vintage fragrance? I really enjoy my reformulated No 88, that i have had for about nine years.

 

[joel]

So I just found out that C&S No. 88 was reformulated perhaps 10 years ago. The original frag came in a gray cylinder and supposedly smelled amazing. People say the reformulation was quite a disappointment, but that is all I know and love. Have any of you tried this mythical vintage fragrance? I really enjoy my reformulated No 88, that i have had for about nine years.

Poppycock. Fragrance nerds ALWAYS say the older stuff is better with almost EVERYTHING and it mystifies me as it's almost always complete and utter hogwash. If anything, it's merely fragrances changing over time as they age and the raw ingredients themselves, not the actual formulation/recipe changing. I had a 200ml bottle from 2003 that shipped in a gray cylinder which was used for the (now defunct) B&B Decant Club as a 2006 Decant. I still have a decant of it left (although not much) and I just compared it with some new 2016 C&S no 88 and they're different, but nothing remarkable and completely expected. I chalk it up to the natural oils sitting around for 13 years, not a different formation.

It's like comparing a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S shod with Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires versus a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S shod with P Zero Trofeo R tires. They're both 2016 Porsche's with absolute top of the line steetable track tires on it - there's a difference, but the number of folks that would truly understand and acknowledge the difference is a fraction of a percent. It is NOT like comparing a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S to a 2008 Honda Pilot, or even a 2016 Corvette.

Bottom line - enjoy and love your new C&S as you are missing absolutely nothing. If you continue to have that sickening feeling like you're missing out though - PM me your address, you're more than welcome to the few squirts of the old stuff I have left. Unfortunately, I think you'll find it to be an entirely wasteful exercise. If it were better in any way, shape or form - I certainly wouldn't be giving it away Frankly - smelling them side by side (which I hadn't done until I read this post) in a blind sniff test, I think 9 out of 10 noses would give the nod to the new juice.

 

[paintflinger]

Poppycock. Fragrance nerds ALWAYS say the older stuff is better with almost EVERYTHING and it mystifies me as it's almost always complete and utter hogwash. If anything, it's merely fragrances changing over time as they age and the raw ingredients themselves, not the actual formulation/recipe changing. I had a 200ml bottle from 2003 that shipped in a gray cylinder which was used for the (now defunct) B&B Decant Club as a 2006 Decant. I still have a decant of it left (although not much) and I just compared it with some new 2016 C&S no 88 and they're different, but nothing remarkable and completely expected. I chalk it up to the natural oils sitting around for 13 years, not a different formation.

It's like comparing a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S shod with Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires versus a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S shod with P Zero Trofeo R tires. They're both 2016 Porsche's with absolute top of the line steetable track tires on it - there's a difference, but the number of folks that would truly understand and acknowledge the difference is a fraction of a percent. It is NOT like comparing a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S to a 2008 Honda Pilot, or even a 2016 Corvette.

Bottom line - enjoy and love your new C&S as you are missing absolutely nothing. If you continue to have that sickening feeling like you're missing out though - PM me your address, you're more than welcome to the few squirts of the old stuff I have left. Unfortunately, I think you'll find it to be an entirely wasteful exercise. If it were better in any way, shape or form - I certainly wouldn't be giving it away Frankly - smelling them side by side (which I hadn't done until I read this post) in a blind sniff test, I think 9 out of 10 noses would give the nod to the new juice.

 

[rum]

The new version is notably more geranium than rose, plus the woody notes in the base have been toned down.

The old juice, IIRC, had nuclear longevity. It would last and project like a beast for ages. I have and love the current juice (it's probably my signature scent although I don't wear it that much given how many scents I rotate through these days).

If only the original stuff was still easy to find here... I would love to sniff it again.

 

[joel]

The new version is notably more geranium than rose, plus the woody notes in the base have been toned down.

The old juice, IIRC, had nuclear longevity. It would last and project like a beast for ages. I have and love the current juice (it's probably my signature scent although I don't wear it that much given how many scents I rotate through these days).

If only the original stuff was still easy to find here... I would love to sniff it again.

Nope, same as the current product. See my post above

 

[goby]

Poppycock. Fragrance nerds ALWAYS say the older stuff is better with almost EVERYTHING and it mystifies me as it's almost always complete and utter hogwash. If anything, it's merely fragrances changing over time as they age and the raw ingredients themselves, not the actual formulation/recipe changing. I had a 200ml bottle from 2003 that shipped in a gray cylinder which was used for the (now defunct) B&B Decant Club as a 2006 Decant. I still have a decant of it left (although not much) and I just compared it with some new 2016 C&S no 88 and they're different, but nothing remarkable and completely expected. I chalk it up to the natural oils sitting around for 13 years, not a different formation.

It's like comparing a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S shod with Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires versus a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S shod with P Zero Trofeo R tires. They're both 2016 Porsche's with absolute top of the line steetable track tires on it - there's a difference, but the number of folks that would truly understand and acknowledge the difference is a fraction of a percent. It is NOT like comparing a 2016 Porsche 911 Carerra S to a 2008 Honda Pilot, or even a 2016 Corvette.

Bottom line - enjoy and love your new C&S as you are missing absolutely nothing. If you continue to have that sickening feeling like you're missing out though - PM me your address, you're more than welcome to the few squirts of the old stuff I have left. Unfortunately, I think you'll find it to be an entirely wasteful exercise. If it were better in any way, shape or form - I certainly wouldn't be giving it away Frankly - smelling them side by side (which I hadn't done until I read this post) in a blind sniff test, I think 9 out of 10 noses would give the nod to the new juice.

Best Comment on B&B ever!

They only scent I can comment on is Dunhill Edition. I loved the old version, and now I love the new version. They smell the same to me.

 

[rum]

Nope, same as the current product. See my post above

I can only go on what my memory tells me. You may be right, but would like to judge for my self. Send your bottle over, Joel

 

[joel]

I can only go on what my memory tells me. You may be right, but would like to judge for my self. Send your bottle over, Joel

PM me your address, you're on the hook for shipping cost to the uk.

 

[The Knize]

Great post, Joel. Nothing substitutes for a side by side, preferably on skin, nose test!

I promised myself long ago I would not become obsessed with vintage scents. It has 100 percent worked out for me. But there are many vintage scents that are not better than current versions, and some that are not different, it turns out!

Real happy to know 88 has not changed.

 

[bman40]

I have a decant from 2014. It's a terrific fragrance. I love it. I tend to wear it more in the summer, but it smells good to me.

 

[mdevine]

Joel, I think you've nailed it here. Fragrances have been my main AD for nearly thirty years. I'm trying to think of even one fragrance I've tried where the old formulation is clearly better than the new one, and can't come up with one. I'm not saying there aren't any at all. I've never tried vintage Tabarome, but enough people whose judgement I trust insist that it is a completely different fragrance than the current one. But I do think that the "idea" of vintage fragrances, and the fact that they often sell for multiples of the price of current bottles, creates a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy that wouldn't hold up to blind sniffing.

It it seems similar to a discussion on this weeks "Criminal" podcast. They discussed the black market price of Pappy Van Winkle, and how the fact that it is nearly impossible to get drives the demand much, much higher. While an excellent whiskey, I suspect most of those paying hundreds of dollars over list price for it would find other high-end, aged, single barrel bourbons every bit as good. The fact that they've paid so much for it is half the appeal.

 

[Vlad]

Joel, I think you've nailed it here. Fragrances have been my main AD for nearly thirty years. I'm trying to think of even one fragrance I've tried where the old formulation is clearly better than the new one, and can't come up with one. I'm not saying there aren't any at all. I've never tried vintage Tabarome, but enough people whose judgement I trust insist that it is a completely different fragrance than the current one. But I do think that the "idea" of vintage fragrances, and the fact that they often sell for multiples of the price of current bottles, creates a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy that wouldn't hold up to blind sniffing.

It it seems similar to a discussion on this weeks "Criminal" podcast. They discussed the black market price of Pappy Van Winkle, and how the fact that it is nearly impossible to get drives the demand much, much higher. While an excellent whiskey, I suspect most of those paying hundreds of dollars over list price for it would find other high-end, aged, single barrel bourbons every bit as good. The fact that they've paid so much for it is half the appeal.

Ha! Yeah, I found the 20yr Pappy disappointing (just a glass). I think bourbon peaks earlier than that. Great age for scotches though.

So what does a 30 year collection look like, eh?

 

[mdevine]

Vlad,

I probably have over 100 different bottles, and decants of nearly 100 more. Of all of those, there are probably less than forty that get worn regularly (more often than several times a year). My tastes have changed quite a bit, and almost all the ones I wear often have been in my cupboard for less than ten years (Dior Eau Sauvage, Geir Ness and Guerlain Habit Rouge are the only one's I can think of). I rarely finish something and get another bottle when running out. In the past 6-7 years, the only ones that I've restocked are Domenico Caraceni 1913, Creed Windsor and Aventus (although I suspect I'll replace Dior Homme when I finish it).

I have thought about cutting down to my favorite 10-15 fragrances, so I could stick to those scents I really love. Then I go and read a review (like the recent front page article on Tom Ford Oud Wood), and the AD kicks in.

 

[Vlad]

That's cool!

Vlad,

I probably have over 100 different bottles, and decants of nearly 100 more. Of all of those, there are probably less than forty that get worn regularly (more often than several times a year). My tastes have changed quite a bit, and almost all the ones I wear often have been in my cupboard for less than ten years (Dior Eau Sauvage, Geir Ness and Guerlain Habit Rouge are the only one's I can think of). I rarely finish something and get another bottle when running out. In the past 6-7 years, the only ones that I've restocked are Domenico Caraceni 1913, Creed Windsor and Aventus (although I suspect I'll replace Dior Homme when I finish it).

I have thought about cutting down to my favorite 10-15 fragrances, so I could stick to those scents I really love. Then I go and read a review (like the recent front page article on Tom Ford Oud Wood), and the AD kicks in.

 

[rickcharles606]

Vlad,

I probably have over 100 different bottles, and decants of nearly 100 more. Of all of those, there are probably less than forty that get worn regularly (more often than several times a year). My tastes have changed quite a bit, and almost all the ones I wear often have been in my cupboard for less than ten years (Dior Eau Sauvage, Geir Ness and Guerlain Habit Rouge are the only one's I can think of). I rarely finish something and get another bottle when running out. In the past 6-7 years, the only ones that I've restocked are Domenico Caraceni 1913, Creed Windsor and Aventus (although I suspect I'll replace Dior Homme when I finish it).

I have thought about cutting down to my favorite 10-15 fragrances, so I could stick to those scents I really love. Then I go and read a review (like the recent front page article on Tom Ford Oud Wood), and the AD kicks in.

The only vintage vs current juice I've really compared was M7, and I tried them side by side and I was more drawn to the vintage but wasn't sure. So, I got my wife involved and did a blind test where she sprayed one on each wrist and I couldn't tell which was which, lol. That's when I gave up looking for the elusive "vintage" frags

 

[joel]

Vlad,

I probably have over 100 different bottles, and decants of nearly 100 more. Of all of those, there are probably less than forty that get worn regularly (more often than several times a year). My tastes have changed quite a bit, and almost all the ones I wear often have been in my cupboard for less than ten years (Dior Eau Sauvage, Geir Ness and Guerlain Habit Rouge are the only one's I can think of). I rarely finish something and get another bottle when running out. In the past 6-7 years, the only ones that I've restocked are Domenico Caraceni 1913, Creed Windsor and Aventus (although I suspect I'll replace Dior Homme when I finish it).

I have thought about cutting down to my favorite 10-15 fragrances, so I could stick to those scents I really love. Then I go and read a review (like the recent front page article on Tom Ford Oud Wood), and the AD kicks in.

Did you try Oud Wood? If so, what'd you think? It really grew on me...

 

[mdevine]

Did you try Oud Wood? If so, what'd you think? It really grew on me...

Not yet, but it on my short list.

 

[Merle]

oh... I'd love to wander about the Osmotheque with professorial rights (and the truly developed skills to back up the claim)...

 

[joel]

The new version is notably more geranium than rose, plus the woody notes in the base have been toned down.

The old juice, IIRC, had nuclear longevity. It would last and project like a beast for ages. I have and love the current juice (it's probably my signature scent although I don't wear it that much given how many scents I rotate through these days).

If only the original stuff was still easy to find here... I would love to sniff it again.

Nope, same as the current product. See my post above

Alex (rum) had the original arrive and got it from a neutral third party in Finland - so you can't accuse me of doctoring the sample Here's what he sent me via PM:

I suppose you were right It is notably weaker than the current version, but clearly has more moss in it. Vintage is slightly woodier; current is a touch more floral. The geranium and definitely dominant in the latter, whereas the woodiness of the original comes out more. It doesn't last as long as I remember it, so maybe this has something to do with how old the sample is.

I like the the first part, not sure if you caught it. The rest of the the note further validates my point - if there's a difference, it's likely due to age, and if anything the newer stuff smells BETTER than the old. Bottom line though, the differences are ridiculously minuscule, even for picky folks with well trained noses. Wear the new stuff loud and proud brothers. Case closed....

 

[Koken]

All I can say is if the original formula was Any better than the current it must have been top notch, this one was a pleasant surprise for me, first masculine rose that I fully appreciated. A love it or hate it fragrance...